长城到底有多长?

The Great Wall has fascinated William Lindesay since he first saw it on a map. In 1987, the Liverpool native made his first trek along 2,470 kilometers of the landmark, and he has called China home ever since.

从第一次在地图上看到长城开始，威廉•林赛（William Lindesay）就被深深吸引。1987年，这位土生土长的利物浦人第一次沿着长城徒步行进2,470公里，之后便把家安在了中国。

He now spends his days hiking, researching, photographing and talking about the Great Wall, as the founder of a conservation group called International Friends of the Great Wall.

如今，作为长城保护组织国际长城之友（International Friends of the Great Wall）的创始人，林赛每天的工作就是徒步爬长城、做研究、摄影以及谈论长城。

Mr. Lindesay, 55 years old, also leads weekend treks of unrestored portions from his guesthouse near Mutianyu, about 60 miles from Beijing, often rousing hikers at 3 a.m. so they're far enough up the mountain to see the wall as the first rays of dawn turn it golden.

55岁的林赛还会组织周末徒步活动，攀爬未经修复的古长城。他在离北京60英里的慕田峪附近有个家庭旅馆，他经常夜里三点就把徒步旅行者们叫醒，为的是能及时爬上山头，看到黎明的第一缕阳光把长城染成金色。

He recently sat down with The Wall Street Journal in his map-lined Beijing study, to talk about skirting death in the Gobi, trying to measure the wall's length and his new book, 'The Great Wall Explained.' Below are edited excerpts from the interview.

不久前林赛在他贴满地图的北京书斋里接受了《华尔街日报》的采访，讲述他在戈壁荒漠里与死神擦肩而过的经历，讲述他如何用双脚丈量长城，还谈到了他的新书《长城图解》（The Great Wall Explained）。以下是经过编辑的访谈摘录：

The Wall Street Journal: We'll start with some of the usual questions.

《华尔街日报》：我们先从一些常规问题开始。

Mr. Lindesay: I hope the first one has nothing to do with the length of the Great Wall. That's the biggest headache.

林赛：我希望第一个问题跟长城的长度无关。这是最令人头疼的。

OK, how long is it?

《华尔街日报》：好吧，它到底有多长？

There are many Great Walls in China. A few years ago, the state announced that they had surveyed the Ming wall, which is the wall most tourists see a segment of on their trips to China. And the figure announced was 8,851 kilometers. That announcement was made in April 2009, and then at the same time the State Administration of Cultural Heritage announced that they were asking archeological teams in each provincial region containing wall to go out and measure it.

林赛：在中国有很多处长城。几年前，中国宣布勘测了明长城，就是大部分游客来中国旅行时会游览的一段长城。官方宣布的数据是8,851公里。这个结果发布于2009年4月，同时中国国家文物局（State Administration of Cultural Heritage）也宣布，他们在发动长城沿线各省的考古小组走出去勘测长城。

In June, the survey was complete, and the figure was 21,196 kilometers…I called some of my wall-researching colleagues. They also felt a little bit confused, so we kind of put our heads together. The 21,196 is a measurement of all the visible Great Walls on the land of China as they stand now. That takes into account scant remains, which would be ankle-high, to grand things that you do want to take a photograph of and explore. And then if we subtract 8,851, the length of Ming wall, we get 12,345 as the length of the pre-Ming walls.

当年6月，勘测结束，结果是21,196公里……我打电话给我研究长城的同事，通报了这一结果。他们也感到有些不解，所以我们集思广益，认为21,196公里是中国大地上现存所有可见的长城遗迹的总长度。这包括那些很不起眼的遗迹，可能只有脚踝那么高，也包括那些你想拍下来并探索一番的宏伟城 。然后如果减去8,851公里，即明长城的长度，那么明以前历代所建长城的长度就是12,345公里。

Is that the final answer?

《华尔街日报》：这是最终的答案吗？

Well, it's actually created more confusion around the world and soured some international relations, because despite talking to several journalists and giving them the insights, most of the headlines in the following week were along the lines of 'Great Wall Found to Be Twice the Length Originally Thought,' which is not at all the case.

林赛：事实上这个答案在世界上引起了困惑，还影响到了国际关系。因为尽管有关方面在接受一些记者采访时给出了详细解释，之后一周的大部分头条标题还是类似“长城总长度为预想的两倍”，而这根本不是真实情况。

It's simply that the state looked at the Ming wall first, they looked at the pre-Ming wall second, and the two added together gives you the total length of all visible remains of the Great Wall in China today.

事实很简单，国家先勘测了明长城，然后又勘测了明以前历代所建的长城，两次勘测结果加起来得到今天中国所有可见的长城遗迹的总长度。

The Korean news services seized upon this news and accused China of stretching the length of the Great Wall like a rubber band.

韩国媒体抓住这个消息不放，指责中国的长城和橡皮筋一样可以随意延长。

How would you answer it?

《华尔街日报》：你对此如何作答？

I think it's best left at rest. The best way to appreciate the Great Wall of China is: wan li chang cheng. These are four Chinese characters. 'Wan,' if you look it up in the dictionary, means 10,000. 'Li' is a Chinese unit of distance equivalent to about 500 meters. 'Chang' is long; 'cheng' is wall. So the direct translation of wan li chang cheng is the '10,000-li long wall.' But if you ask someone who's literate to translate 'wan' in that context they would say, it actually doesn't mean 10,000, it means endless, immeasurable. So the erudite translation of wan li chang cheng is 'the endless wall,' and in fact that is one of the opening discussions in my book.

林赛：我觉得最好置之不理。赞赏中国长城的最佳方式是：万里长城。这是四个中国字。如果你查字典，“万”的意思是10,000。“里”是中国的距离单位，约等于500米。“长”就是很长；“城”就是城 。因此直译的话，万里长城就是“10,000里长的城 ”。但如果你让有文化的人在这个语境中翻译“万”，他们会说，它并不是实指10,000，而是说无穷无尽，不可估量。所以万里长城更有文化内涵的译法是“没有尽头的城 ”，事实上这是我新书里的一个开篇讨论话题。

Why did you write this book?

《华尔街日报》：你为什么写这本书？

After I made my initial Great Wall adventure in 1987, exactly 25 years ago, I saw a lot of the wall. I saw probably more of the Great Wall of China than another foreigner had for well over half a century, nearly a century. I really wanted to capitalize on that achievement and that knowledge. I wanted to introduce the magnificence and the wonder and the mystery of the Great Wall to people around the world as I discovered it.

林赛：我1987年完成了第一次长城探险，那正好是25年前。我看到了很多城 ，可能比别的外国人在过去半个多世纪、近一个世纪看到的还多。我当时很想充分利用那次成就和了解到的情况。我发现了长城，我就想把它的壮丽、非凡和神秘介绍给全世界的人。

I was telling people the Great Wall story, and they were asking me questions. After a while I began to think, the typical curious, thinking person, they may arrive in China and not know the difference between Mao and Ming. Anyway, I felt that most people's knowledge about the Great Wall was actually very superficial, and a lot of it was completely incorrect.

我给人们讲长城的故事，他们会问许多问题。过了不久我开始发现，典型的有好奇心、爱思考的人，他们可能来到中国还不知道“毛”和“明”的区别。总之，我觉得大部分人关于长城的知识其实非常肤浅，并且很多还是完全错误的。

So I began to think, how can I really deliver a good engaging Great Wall story to the people I talk to? I wanted them to feel the thrill I felt without getting too bogged down and confused by the difficult-to-pronounce Chinese names and the masses of dates, and the confusion of it all.

因此我开始思考，怎样才能给那些跟我交谈的人传达一个美好动人的长城故事？我想让他们在不要太沉溺于那些很难发音的中文名字还有大量数据，在不被这些东西弄得晕头转向的情况下感受到我的激动心情。

There are reports that you found portions of the Great Wall outside China.

《华尔街日报》：有报道说你在中国境外找到了长城遗址。

To explain my findings of 2011, I coined a new term: 'Great Wall outside China.' Which is a compromise. It's a recognition that the structure being seen is a great wall─it's a fortification built during the conflict between the nomadic people of the north and the sedentary crop-growing people of the south. But it's outside today's China.

林赛：为解释我在2011年的发现，我造了一个新短语：“中国以外的长城”（Great Wall outside China）。这是一种折中的说法。我所看到的建筑物的确是长城，它是北方游牧民族和南方农耕民族发生冲突时期修建的堡垒，但它又不在现在的中国境内。

How can they still be finding parts of the Great Wall today?

《华尔街日报》：那怎么还有人继续发现新的长城呢？

I would rephrase it. Last year I never claimed to have discovered a section of the Great Wall. I evidenced the existence of a section of Great Wall built by a dynasty not previously known to have built a Great Wall.

林赛：我重新表述一下。去年我从未宣称自己发现了一段长城。我证明的是某个朝代所修建的一段长城的存在，而我们之前以为这个朝代没有修建过长城。

How did you do that?

《华尔街日报》：你是怎么发现的？

Thumbing through an atlas of Mongolia, I saw a symbol for what looked like the wall, but when I checked it out in the legend, it was not the Great Wall of China. Of course, how could it be─it was in Mongolia. It was the wall of Genghis Khan. And then eventually I looked on Google Earth and found this faint line crossing the south Gobi. So first of all, it's on the map, so obviously I didn't discover it. But I'm the first researcher that went there, and going there is not easy. It's the heart of the Gobi.

林赛：在翻看一本蒙古地图册的时候，我发现了一个像长城的符号，但我在图例中查找时，却发现它并不是中国长城。当然，怎么可能是呢，它是在蒙古境内。它是成吉思汗长城。最后我在Google Earth上发现了这条穿越戈壁滩南部的模糊线条。因此它本来就在地图上，但我没有发现它。不过我是第一个到达那里的研究者，而且去那里很不容易。那是戈壁滩的心脏地带。

Didn't you risk your life in one expedition?

《华尔街日报》：你这不是为了一次考察冒生命危险吗？

It turned out that way. Just a year before, I had made a documentary, and I wanted to take viewers of the documentary to one of the rarest parts of the wall, dating from 110 B.C.

林赛：结果确实是这样。就在一年前，我做了一部纪录片，我希望把这部片子的观众带到从公元前110年就开始存在的这段最人迹罕至的长城。

We couldn't get there with vehicles, because there were dried-up watercourses, wadis, very deep, preventing vehicle access. I was going in with a crew of filmmakers carrying equipment, and some of the members of the crew ignored my caution to take 10 bottles. It transpired halfway through this filming sequence that many people only set off with two or three bottles of water, so those with the water had to share it out, and that meant everyone was short of water on the return trek. People started suffering from cramps, collapsing with the heat, and eventually we decided on a rescue plan: Me, my assistant and the cameraman would continue on trying to get to the road and organizing a rescue, while the others waited.

我们没法开车去，因为有很多干涸的河道，旱谷非常深，车没法通过。我是跟一个带着设备的拍摄团队一起进去的，有些队员不听我的劝告，没有带够10瓶水。拍到一半的时候，发现很多人出发时只带了两三瓶水，所以有水的人就得分一些出去，这就意味着在回来的路上每个人的水都不够。有人开始抽筋，中暑晕厥，最后我们商量出了一个营救计划：我和我的助手还有摄影师继续努力向公路进发并组织营救，其他人原地等待。

The temperature reached 46 degrees Celsius in the late afternoon. I don't want to come that close to death anymore.

当天下午晚些时候气温达到了46摄氏度。我再也不想离死神那么近了。